Mines and ! Sign changes

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HexZyle
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Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby HexZyle » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:16 am

Since I'm OCD and I prefer things sorted, I live by the code that each idea or topic requires its own thread.

MINES ARE SEVERELY UNDERPOWERED. Let's compare them to both Missiles and Laser Walls:

Compared to Missiles (explosive, spontaneous nature)
PROS
*Mines are reactive, they do not require the robo's attention to activate, while to use missiles on Bunnies the Robo must actively see and use it on the Bunny.

CONS
*Mines cost 70c, Missiles only cost 50c
*Mines are single use, while Missiles get 6 uses.
*The placement of mines requires a Bunny to deviate from the standard path of Drop Zone to Feed Box, meaning additional attention from the Robo player. They must also be placed somewhere between the Drop Zone (Bunny OBEYing area) and the Robosaru (in a Bunny disOBEYing zone) while the placement of Missiles in the Feed Box usually takes Bunnys away from the Robo (except in DoubleL) and is as much as a routine process as delivering Uranium.
*The Bunny that placed the mine, as well as the Robo watching him knows where the mine is. If a third Bunny takes over, now there's at least two Bunnies on the field who know where the mine is.
*Mines cannot be moved, unlike Missiles which, once loaded, can be fired wherever.
*Mines cannot be placed anywhere near the zap range of Sentries, while Missiles can be fired quite low.

Compared to Laser Walls (defensive emplacements)
PROS
*Mines are indestructible, while laser walls will be removed if hit by bullets or an explosion (although this isn't that big a pro since they blow up once used)
*Mines can be used as a surprise/psychological element, although I am unsure of the usefulness of this feature (minor pro, I think)
*When only one is purchased, a Mine still works, while a Laser Wall does not (very minor pro: no robo worth his salt just buys a single Laser Wall, and Bunnies don't get paid for placing just a single pole.)
*Mines cannot be climbed over, although climbing over Laser Walls is tricky to pull off (very minor pro)

CONS
*Mines are only single use, while Lasers will zap for eternity
*Multiple mines are difficult to set up for risk of the bunny getting killed without the robo's guidance
*Mines cover FAR less distance than Laser Walls set up for the same price. Laser walls can cover a 6-tile line for 100c, a 12-tile one for 150c, and a 18-tile one for 200c. Mines are a flat 70c per 4-tiles. (140c for 8, 210c for 12, 280c for 16)

Of course, mines are still a valid counter for Laser Walls. (and since this is their only actually useful use, carrying mines is often a punishable act) They are not the only counter though, as a bunny who creates a staircase near a Laser Wall can force a Robo to take the risk of shooting and destroying his own poles, if he doesn't have flamethrower ammo.

Possible Exclusive Fixes
*Reduce the price of mines by at least 50c
*Double the mine trigger radius
*When a mine is placed, cause an additional 6 mines to be placed in a ring around the center mine. Give a warning to the bunny that placed them and a 10 second activation time.
*Have mines placed in the Feed Box, and let the Robo place them (not fond of this idea though because it's removing robo-bunny interaction)

Perhaps increasing the usability of mines will increase how often people use ! Signs, but in the case that it doesn't, I've got some ideas for changes to the ! Sign too. You could turn it into a:

Security Feed
Placing this item gives the Robo an inset showing everything infront of the camera. This doesn't necessarily have to be fully realtime, it could perhaps take an image every 5 seconds (with a flashing red light when it does)
The issue I see with this is increased cpu requirements if it's a real time feed, and a limit to how many are placeable either way, lest your whole screen be filled with feeds

Proximity Sensor
Has a dotted line encircling the sensor visible by the robo, and the sensor starts beeping wildly or drops an alert indicator on itself when a bunny moves into its detection range)

Scanner Sweep
Takes the form of a rotating radar dish. This are essentially mini "radars". The scannar rotates, and whenever it detects a bunny both in its line of sight and within its radius of effect, it displays an exclamation mark at the bunny's location visible to only the robo. This differs from the proximity sensor in the way that it's possible to bypass it, but if you fail to, your exact location is pointed out, rather than just a general area.

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dez
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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby dez » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:10 pm

hey Hex,

once I saw the title of your post I knew that you were on to something because I was feeling the same thing intuitively.
Something does need to be adjusted about them.
After reading your post I am hovering between some combination of these two:
A) lower price for mines
B) mines must be manually activated by robo.

It is true that B would nuke the ability to destroy laser walls with mines, but I have never seen this accomplished in practice in a competitive game.
It is also true that B would nuke the ability for bunnies to lay them in the middle of a pile of goodies to screw over the robo. I have only seen this accomplished against newbies though.

The problem with A is that the current price of the mines is to discourage excessive trolling with mines, which was a major problem in past versions.

Also, I usually don't use mines as robo BECAUSE they are so trollable. I have been the only player that I know of to have successfully used them in a game as intended... and that only happened once: I had some bunnies lay them down and they actually OBEYed - after which they were so scared of going near the area that it was way more effective than laser walls, even after some had been detonated. Trying to get them to play this way consistently is my goal with mines.

Proximity Sensor
Has a dotted line encircling the sensor visible by the robo, and the sensor starts beeping wildly or drops an alert indicator on itself when a bunny moves into its detection range)

Something like this is exactly what I was thinking, and I even put it on the planned features.

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HexZyle
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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby HexZyle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:43 am

So you've just listed off even more reasons why mines aren't very viable in most circumstances. I guess the psychological thing works wonders, but in competitive gameplay I can imagine that players will pay more attention to mine placements, and the more often control of Robo switches, the less effective as a psychological tool they are.

I forgot that mines can be used to obliterate Robosaru's resources. This plus the fence-destroying properties seems to make Mines the only purchasable item that benefits bunnies and disadvantages the Robo (ignoring item stacking)

dez wrote:mines must be manually activated by robo.

I guess if you prevented mines from being triggered by Bunnies until manually activated by Robo, that would prevent the bunnies from being able to use it to their benefit at all, and it also would mean the Robo has more control over the locations of active minefields. Bunnies could place down mines wherever, and the Robo could activate them once he finds them satisfactory. That's a pretty neat idea.
Still, yes, bring the price down a lot. They're nearly useless due to how costly they are at the moment.

If there was an ability to deactivate mines too, that could be handy for allowing maintenance of a minefield, but I'm not putting a lot of emphasis on this idea as I don't think it hugely important.

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ZepliN
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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby ZepliN » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:35 am

Well the thing about mines is...if the overlord can not see them/destroy them, the bunnies will abuse them. So it is indeed a grey area.

The bunnies like myself who use mines a lot are able to actually get away with it and blow stuff up. So its not so broken for the most part, they are fine as is till more problems arise.

We have also talked about signs in previous discussions and I think we may have come up with a solution which i will not say. I can however say that it will add another aspect to the game if Dez does decide to move forward with it.
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HexZyle
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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby HexZyle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:47 am

ZepliN wrote:Well the thing about mines is...if the overlord can not see them/destroy them, the bunnies will abuse them. So it is indeed a grey area.

Erm, no-one said anything about making them invisible to the Robo. Doing so would complete the conversion of them being a trolling tool for bunnies xD
ZepliN wrote:The bunnies like myself who use mines a lot are able to actually get away with it and blow stuff up. So its not so broken for the most part, they are fine as is till more problems arise.

Yeah, that's the thing. I thought Mines were intended to be used as a defensive item by the Robo. It's even implied to be like that in the tutorial when it tells you they're invisible to everyone but the bunnies.
But since they are able to be used as trolling tools, and dez has upped their price due to this, it's almost entirely invalidated their usage for that purpose due to their inefficiency. dez's idea for making them only activatable by Robo SHOULD solve this entire problem.
ZepliN wrote:We have also talked about signs in previous discussions and I think we may have come up with a solution which i will not say. I can however say that it will add another aspect to the game if Dez does decide to move forward with it.

You mean this?
dez wrote:
HexZyle wrote:Proximity Sensor
Has a dotted line encircling the sensor visible by the robo, and the sensor starts beeping wildly or drops an alert indicator on itself when a bunny moves into its detection range)

Something like this is exactly what I was thinking, and I even put it on the planned features.

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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby ZepliN » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:56 am

Yes on the sensor.

As per the mines, you can not make them only be activated by the robot. Doing so would allow the robot to fence in all the bunnies (as it has happened before) and the bunnies would have absolutely no way out BESIDES climbing over the fence (which is possible). The mines allow bunnies to prevent an overlord from turning the tides in his/her favor.
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HexZyle
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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby HexZyle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:04 am

ZepliN wrote:As per the mines, you can not make them only be activated by the robot. Doing so would allow the robot to fence in all the bunnies (as it has happened before) and the bunnies would have absolutely no way out BESIDES climbing over the fence (which is possible). The mines allow bunnies to prevent an overlord from turning the tides in his/her favor.


So you're saying they shouldn't be changed? I can see they're not broken as a bunny usable item.
But then they should at least have their implied purpose altered: Have them described as a bunny utility item first and foremost. Otherwise new players as robo will buy a pile of them and allow bunnies to carry them only to have everything they ever loved blown to smitheroons :P

BTW they can get out, they can crash the Dropship.
Last edited by HexZyle on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mines and ! Sign changes

Postby ZepliN » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:24 am

In the case of getting out of a fenced in area, yea you can crash the drop ship, but that's not saying it will hit the fenced in area, what we did was fence in the drop ship zone, leading all the way to the box. It worked surprisingly well.

But no, i do not think they should be changed without thinking long and hard about their use. They are a utility to the bunnies more than the robot, since the robot can not place them, however a smart robot would have the bunnies place them in areas around the robot for best effect.
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